Chris Beem talks with journalist Tim Alberta about the role that Evangelical Christians play in the Republican Party — and what that means for the future of American democracy.
Chris Beem talks with journalist Tim Alberta about the role that Evangelical Christians play in the Republican Party — and what that means for the future of American democracy.
Alberta is a staff writer at The Atlantic and author of the books The Kingdom, The Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism and American Carnage: On the Front Lines of the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump. He's also the son of an evangelical pastor.
This conversation covers both books and how the evangelical movement and the Republican party have been corrupted. They also discuss the role that religion should play in politics, and Alberta's answer might surprise you.
Jenna Spinelle
From the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State University, welcome to Democracy Works. I'm Jenna Spinelle. This week on the show my co host, Chris Beem talks with Tim Alberta, writer for The Atlantic, formerly of Politico, and author of the books, the kingdom, the power and the glory, American evangelicals in the age of extremism, and American carnage, on the frontlines of the Republican Civil War and the rise of President Trump. And I think in many ways, this conversation is a combination of those two books. Chris has his PhD from the Divinity School at the University of Chicago. So he's very interested in the role that religion plays in our public lives and in our democracy. And you may remember that back in the fall, Chris spoke with former Republican strategist, Tim Miller. So he's also very interested in the state of the Republican Party and how things got to be that way. This conversation does start off a bit heavier on the religion side than we typically go in our episodes. But he does a nice job of bringing it back around to democracy toward the end. So I hope you enjoy it. Chris Beem’s conversation with Tim Alberta.
Chris Beem
Tim Alberta, thank you very much for joining us on Democracy Works.
Tim Alberta
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Chris Beem
There's a quote from that you, that you make by Philip Ryken is a president of Wheaton College. And he says, some of us are afraid of suffering harm from a white man. He's you know, Wheaton College is a is an evangelical school highly regarded in, in suburban Chicago. And he says to his students and the wheaton community, some of us are afraid of suffering harm from a white majority culture, or for some of us becoming a racial minority and a non white culture, or for some of us becoming a religious minority, in a post Christian culture, we all have our fears, there are things happening in the culture, and also happening in the church that only exacerbate them. And, and I read that, and the thought occurred to me that this book, isn't that different from your last one, at that, both of them are dealing with a group of people who are for swearing themselves, because they are afraid. And even more specifically, they're afraid of losing their worldly status. And I want to just ask you, you know, what do you think of that, and? And did that thought ever occur to you?
Tim Alberta
No, it did. And I think it's a keen observation on your part. In many ways, what my first book American carnage attempted to do, was to write a first draft of history in examining the institutional crackup of the Republican Party, which is to say that in a in a in the moment, that was defined by this sort of swirling insecurity, cultural, economic, social political insecurity, that the forces inside the Republican Party that had traditionally been served as as sort of gatekeepers, and as moderators, and that were traditionally able to sort of dictate outcomes and keep things relatively stable and on the tracks, they were suddenly overpowered by the anxious outsiders and who and really the anxious masses that were that were willing to listen to the outsiders and who decided that it was time to flip the script and kind of lay siege to, to the castle walls. And I think in many ways, what we're dealing with inside of American evangelicalism today is something similar. I think it has many, at the very least it has many of the same root causes. When you when you try to understand the ways in which American life and American culture have changed in the let's say, the past 20 years, really in the post 911 era, when you think about the demographic changes, the the sweeping cultural changes, and the you know, the subsequent transformation really of our political system and particularly of the Republican Party as to which the overwhelming majority of white evangelical Christians claim their political allegiance, then, you know, it's not all that surprising to see that some of this great disruption that first came for the Republican Party is now coming for the white Evangelical Church, the two are sort of operating on parallel tracks in many ways.
Chris Beem
You have a chapter or two, where you talk about really the the downfall of Liberty University, at least insofar as it is a sign of, you know, God's work in a fallen world. And it you know, it struck me that you're, you know, when you talk about, you know, Liberty University, it's, it's kind of a metaphor for evangelicals and the Republican Party. They were happy to employ to harness their political power to take their money and their votes. And they were willing to talk the talk. But then when, at the end of the day, this was about power. And that was a more important objective than anything else. And that, you know, some of this Jesus stuff was kind of just getting in the way. And you still have, as you do in the Republican Party, a large cadre of evangelicals who are, you know, absolutely. Foursquare committed to their, to their Christian faith. But they kind of sometimes, in many ways in the history, you recount, they got rolled and, and treated unfairly. And I feel like that's sometimes what happens in the Republican Party, too. What do you think of that?
Tim Alberta
Yeah, look, I think it's, I think it's fair. And, you know, of course, the question that I've gotten left and right is, well, you know, how many, how many people are we talking about who had been radicalized in the church and in the Republican Party, for that matter? And how do you try to quantify this? And I don't know that there is any easy quantifying it. But I think that one of the one of the really persistent observations and conclusions that I've reached is that you do seem to have inside of both the American Evangelical Church, and I think probably to a lesser extent inside the institution of the Republican Party, you do still have a large remnant of individuals who are sort of horrified by what they've seen, and who are who remain quite resistant to this hostile takeover by the sort of populist, anti intellectual blood and soil God and country forces that have reshaped these these institutions are in such a short period of time. But I think that that remnant is is out outgunned and outmanned. In many ways, not just in terms of the raw numbers, but I think one of the points I raised a few times in the book is what what it looks like when a highly mobilized highly invested highly vocal, and really, and really combative minority runs up against a rather timid and placid and, and non confrontational majority. And, you know, what we see time and again, is that the former tends to overpower the ladder quite easily. And I think that that's certainly been the story inside the American Evangelical Church, even more so than inside the Republican Party, which is to say that when I've spent time with pastors, dozens and dozens of pastors around the country who have had something akin to a civil war breaking out inside of their congregations in recent years, almost invariably, they will say to me, that the percentage of the real sort of radical fringe element in their church that's kind of made life miserable for everyone. is no more than maybe 15%, maybe 20% tops. But that leaves a large majority of folks who don't agree with the positions don't agree with the rhetoric don't agree with the direction that these folks want to take the church. And yet, they have largely been been silent and complacent in the face of the insurgency. And that is, I think, the fundamental dilemma inside of evangelicalism today.
Chris Beem
It is a group of people who are who have a fairly straightforward narrative, right, that this is a battle between good and evil, and they are absolutely certain that they are on the right side. And that is not it's not merely a Christian thing, that is a human thing that when you have both of those, it is it's empowering. And it's hard to hard to resist hard to argue with. It's just, you know, there there is a power that comes from certainty. That is, you know, hard to how to combat I mean, there's, it is striking to me, how infrequently you hear these folks talking about the mote in their own eye, and that only God is good. I just never hear that. And I think that's because that is those are Christian concepts that just don't fit into the narrative. They're not useful for the narrative.
Tim Alberta
Well, look, I think you're at the very end there, you're touching on something that's central to this, which is, it is a Christian ideal, it is a Christian conceit, to, to interrogate oneself to hold. You know, I, a great pastor once told me that the Bible was a mirror that we hold up to ourselves to see how depraved and how broken we are, and that and how much we need Christ to transform our hearts and to make us more like him. And that sort of self criticism, that sort of uncertainty, that embrace of, of, of the, the mess that we are, and the recognition that God and only God, it can can ultimately redeem us. That is, obviously, the the essential Christian worldview. And yet, you see very little of that practiced and implemented in our everyday politics. And I think one is forced to reach the uncomfortable conclusion at a certain point that the reason that those christian ethics fail to inform our partisan political engagement is that our identity many of us is far more rooted in our partisan political engagement than it is in our Christian ethics. It's because the two are often at odds with one another. And it really becomes a binary choice, if not a binary choice, and at the very least, it it requires a certain priority, a certain ordering of those identities. And I think so much of what I've written in the book is pointing to the uncomfortable fact that for far too many Christians, their identity as followers of Jesus had become subservient to these other identities.
Chris Beem
I think that is not only true, it's also for you know, for any believer it's just nothing short of tragic because they're just, you know, what, when you when you there's just no, no way around it. Christian nationalism is a heresy. And, and once, it should not be that hard to call. And once you step into that, you step across that Rubicon. It's not hard to accept all the rest that goes along with it. Namely, you know, that if you're doing the Lord's work than doing things that are not commensurate with you know, that God said don't do is okay or at least acceptable because of the stakes of what you're what you're arguing with.
Tim Alberta
That's right, I mean, the the ends begin to justify the means almost almost as a matter of reflex and it becomes, it becomes effortless to say, Well, sure, this behavior, this rhetoric, this sort of activity is not consistent with the teachings of Christ, but we are locked in a struggle for the soul of our civilization. And you have to think about the, the big picture here, you have to think about the long term. So it's, it's, and of course, this is not just a problem when it comes to dealing with extremism and, and the potential for, you know, civic unrest and violence. But even, you know, as I dedicated chapter late in the book to the epidemic of sexual abuse and cover ups in the church, I mean, it's it's part of that same dynamic where it becomes, it becomes second nature to say, well, you know, the church is, is fighting for God's will to be done on earth. And if word gets out that the pastor of this church has been abusing children, then that is, you know, ipso facto, a win for the forces of evil, and therefore, we can't allow that to happen. We, you know, we, we have to be thinking in terms of the cosmic collision here of good versus evil, and if you're not helping the side of good, then you are, by definition, helping side of evil, you know, and that, that becomes the trap that the false the false choice paradigm that so many of us have, have had to exist in.
Chris Beem
Well, and, and I, I am not at all persuaded that the the, they are describing reality accurately, you quote Richard land who you can, can remind me, what he what his position was when he said it, but he said, we want the 50s without the racism and the sexism. And that's what the objective is, right? There's nothing that I know that's in the Bible that says, you know, 9050s, that's, that's the that's the gold standard. That's once you got that you're good, right? I just, I don't see how that objective translates into anything directly, or specifically Christian. It's about it's about a culture, it's not about a fate.
Tim Alberta
That's, that's well said. And, you know, let's, let's just, let's strip away some of the ambiguity here in this part of the conversation. I mean, when you say that it's about the culture. Look, we are dealing with the white Evangelical Church, right. And when you think about what the night you know, Leave It to Beaver idealized 1950s, America looked like, sure it might have been, it might have been really good for some of these white Protestants who did not face any particular discrimination for the color of their skin, or for their faith tradition, or, or any of that. But what about for their brothers and sisters in the faith, they're Catholic brothers and sisters, their Black and Brown Brothers and sisters, the 1950s weren't all that great of a time for them. And then I think even more to the point to be clear, because we are called, not just by Christ, to look out for our brothers and sisters, we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves. And you know, there are there are many of our neighbors, for whom this this again, this idealized version of America was actually not so good. And so are we thinking about what is best for our neighbor? What is best for our community? Or are we so consumed with self with self preservation with with our own with our own privileged status, that we become blind to what may be the advancement and the progress and the betterment of our community around us? And that, of course, is you know, it's been it raises some uncomfortable questions. I've used that phrase a couple of times, I think but some uncomfortable questions around race and around identity in the church and you know what gospel isn't truly or which God is it truly or which Kingdom is it truly, that will We aspire to. And obviously, the conclusion that I reach in parts of the book is that we have effectively committed the great sin of idolatry in this nation by, by by putting on a pedestal, this, this, this idealized version of America that we that we are so eager to reclaim, when in fact, the only kingdom we are supposed to be pursuing is the kingdom of God.
Chris Beem
This is really fascinating, and I don't, part of me wants to keep going. But for the sake of those who have our listeners who just are kind of like flummoxed Wait, what podcasts my listening to? Let me, let me go back and ask you a, again, a more kind of democracy kind of question. You know, there there is a notion, especially within Western Europe, were Christian is an adjective that doesn't describe a faith that describes an identity, it describes, you know, it's basically a, you know, a historical legacy that has created this civilization. And most important thing is it's not Islam. And, you know, there are there, there's evidence within, you know, polling data and others that says that, for many of the people who are committed to this kind of a Trumpian worldview, they they are evangelical in, in that identity sense more than in that faith sense that they that they're concerned about Christian Christian culture, and a Christian nation, but they're not necessarily, you know, spending a lot of time in church. But it seems to me like you're the narratives and the really heartbreaking stories of these pastors trying to navigate this. This Maelstrom that they're suddenly just tossed into, makes me think that you don't think that's true, or you don't think that's true anymore. It may it certainly may not be all of the faithful evangelicals in the nation who have kind of bought into this narrative. But there's a sizable percentage that have
Tim Alberta
So Chris, it's a complicated question, and I'll unpack it in some layers. I think the first thing I would point to is, we saw the data during Trump's presidency, that that that proved beyond any reasonable doubt that you have a a growing number of Trump supporters, white Trump voters who were self identifying as evangelical in this country, even as the attendance in their churches was declining, rather significantly. And so that, for starters, I think gives us a pretty clear indication of the identity, the self identification phenomenon that you're describing, that we've seen in Europe, we've seen in some other places, but it is certainly ascendant here in the United States. And that I think, reflects a macro development in which we've seen over the last, certainly over the last 15 to 20 years, but I think arguably, you trace it back into, you know, certainly the the mid to early 1980s. This, this transformation of what it meant to be an evangelical and what the common understanding was of one who identified as Evangelical, certainly, in the late 70s, early 80s, into the mid 80s, the it was pretty commonly understood that Evangelical, spoke to a spiritual disposition, and was a distinct subculture within a subculture. And it was a religious phenomenon of religious identifier, as the as the Moral Majority, and then its successor groups, the Christian coalition and whatnot, as they really got their hooks deeper into the Republican Party and as the sort of unholy alliance of religion and politics became more powerful. That signifier, that identity, that identity marker of being an Evangelical, it began to shift and I think where it is today, as I write in the introduction of the book is is very much a marker of white conservative Republican who who happens to go to church maybe right like that, that's that's where the that's where the term is now and it is there for good reason. And as I said a minute ago, the social science proved this out during the Trump years that even as fewer of these people were going to church, more of them were identifying as evangelicals. I think, I think one level removed from this, however, is where there's an even greater crisis. And this was what you were hinting at, at the end of your question, which is that you have, in far too many of these churches, folks who do still attend somewhat regularly, folks who are members of congregations, folks who would, you know, by any qualifier, who would, who would fit in the category of a church going, Bible believing Evangelical, who are simply not all that engaged with their faith, who are simply not all that engaged with the Bible. And this is not just something that I would ask listeners to take my word for. I've spent time now with hundreds and hundreds of pastors around the country, almost all of them who are leaders in in conservative, reformed evangelical settings, these are these are not, you know, woke pastors, these are not Marxist pastors. These are not you know, members of the deep state. These are people who if you are conservative, evangelical listening, these are pastors like you people who you would take spiritual guidance from. And when they spoke to me, in their very honest moments, the recurring dilemma that many of them were pointing to, is that a lot of the people in their church are, are far more prone to viewing their faith through the context of their politics, rather than viewing their politics through the context of their faith. In other words, the tale has begun to wag the dog and to many of these settings and the the rhetoric around imminent Armageddon in this country, and Christians are going to be persecuted, and it's good versus evil. And you have to be on the right side. All of that doomsday thinking that has been sort of percolating in the evangelical movement for many decades, has really come home to roost. And so for me, the crisis is not, you know, the people who claim to be Evangelical, but who don't really go to church. It's the church going evangelicals who have started to lose the plot, because they have gotten so worked up over the perceived threats to this country and to their own status.
Chris Beem
Yeah, you have lefty, or, you know, basically, Democrats, who see this kind of amalgam of politics and Christianity, and they're repelled by it, but they probably, in their heart of hearts would not have the same reaction to a black Protestant church that had a source of the polls, and brought everybody to vote right after church on a Sunday. And you'd probably, you could reverse everything I just said about somebody who's a Republican, right, who they'd say, you know, boy, that's just using religion, and it's not, it's not authentic, and it's, it's bad theology. And it's, and it's, you know, not it's using religion. And I wonder, after all of this, whether you have a sense of, you know, what do you think, what would it mean for your, your, to be a, a person of faith and to be engaged in the political world? How, you know, how would you do that in a way that was, you know, authentic? And that, you know, got the tail on the dog? Right?
Tim Alberta
Well, I'm glad you asked that. And I want to be clear that you know, political identity is not, cannot be should never be confused with identity in Christ. And what I what I have said in several settings, and this upsets some people invariably Not that I care at all, but just to be very clear, my position on this is consistent. The purpose of the church is to advance God's kingdom. It is not to advance a political agenda. It is not to advance any sort of a partisan crusade, whatever the stakes may be. It is not the mission, the purpose of the church. The purpose of the church is to advance God's Kingdom is to make disciples it is to carry the Gospels to the end of the earth, and to preach the message of God's redemptive love and Jesus's sacrifice for us, to all the nations and to those who might otherwise never hear it. The concern I have in all of these settings, is that when in a in a church or specifically in a sanctuary, which is set apart for the worship of God and for the making of disciples, when we begin to elevate other sorts of gods in those settings, so when Joe Biden is in a black church in Charleston, South Carolina earlier this week, and people in the sanctuary are chanting for more years, I find that to be repugnant, and I find it to be dangerous, because for anyone on the outside looking in, they start to believe that the church is just a part of this means to an end, partisan political crusade, it just depends on which flavor of partisan tribalism you choose to engage with, when in fact, what we know from Scripture is that Jesus was not partisan. Now, that's not to say Jesus was not political. And let me be clear on this, people will inevitably point to the abolitionist movement to the civil rights movement and say, Well, what about the church's role there, I believe that the the Christians, individually and collectively should speak their conscience should be engaged civically should make their voice heard in the public square, I do not think that Christians should weaponize the church itself, to try to win the culture wars to try to win elections to try to dominate the culture around them. Because inevitably, that mission creep, even if it is for the best of intentions, and with the purest of motivations, at first, it will eventually turn the church into something that it is not intended to be. So I think that there's a fine line, Christians have to walk here where they can be engaged, and they can be participants in a healthy way, without it giving way to this sort of idolatry and the sort of tail wagging the dog that we've been describing.
Chris Beem
That's really good. And, you know, rendering under Caesar that would just sees a rendering under God that which is God, you know, that's easy to say, it's not always easy to do. But that only raises the stakes of being self critical. Right. And, and, and asking about whether or not what you're doing is authentic. Anyway, I've really, you know, enjoy this conversation. I thought the book actually, I thought your both both of your books are really terrific. It's really this one, I think, especially is so honest, and and heartfelt and and the stories are so real. It's, it's a really, I really thought it was a terrific book. So anyway, I really want to thank you for for joining us and for your work and for the conversation.
Tim Alberta
It's my pleasure, Chris, thank you for saying all that. Thank you for having me. And thank you for for leading the conversation on an ongoing basis. It's very important and I'm grateful to you for it.